Character Name: Tengu Blindfu
Race: Tengu
Racial Alternatives: Claws (Replaces Swordplay)
Classes: Monk (Maneuver Master 1) / Ninja X
Favorite Class Bonus: Skill point or Hitpoint
Concept: Blinds foes with free action dirty trick combat maneuver (gain through Maneuver Master) and then gains 3 or 4 Natural attacks at full BAB with sneak attack. He could also get 6 attacks taking 2 to 3 unarmed strikes followed by 3 natural attacks at -2 (see below). At 11th, when he can go greater invisibility, he only has to use his blinding strategy when he is made visible through magical means or when he wants to blind the opponent for the benefit of the party. Please note that true strike can be used for the dirty trick maneuver, thus making sure that he succeeds at blinding and that your blinding affect last a while.
- FYI, Pathfinder RPG wrote: “Blinded – The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)… All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone….”
Starting Stats
(25 point build): Str:10, Int:10, Wis:14, Dex:18, Con:14, Chr:14
(20 point build): Str:10, Int:8, Wis:14, Dex:18, Con:12, Chr:14
(15 point build): Str:10, Int:8, Wis:14, Dex:16, Con:12, Chr:14
- Stat Advancement – Put all stat level adjustments into dexterity
Feats / Traits
Traits: Indomitable Faith, Resilient
M1) Weapon Finesse (Note 1), Improved Dirty Trick, AC Bonus, Unarmed Strike
R2) Sneak Attack (6d6), Poison Use
R3) Ki Pool, Weapon Training (aka Weapon Focus (Bite)) NT, Weapon Focus (Claws)
R4) No Trace +3
R5) Uncanny Dodge, Shadow Clone NT, Extra Ninja Trick (Minor Magic RT (Read Magic))
R7) Light Step, Vanishing Trick NT, Extra Ninja Trick (Major Magic RT (True Strike))
R9) Combat Trick (Multi-attack) NT, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Arcane Strike
R11) Invisible Blade NT, Extra Ninja Talent (Crippling Strike RT)
R13) Ninja Trick, Level Feat
NT = Ninja Trick; RT = Rogue Trick – Ninja’s can select rogue tricks.
Alternative Selections for a Crowd Control Build – R3) Smoking Bomb NT, Extra Ninja Trick (Choking Bomb); R11) Extra Ninja Trick (Blinding Bomb)
Alternative Selections for an Optibuilds’ Skills PDF Part I Build – R3) Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Skill Focus (Use Magic Device):
- Given the secrets revealed in Optibuilds’ Skill PDF Part 1, this is the preferable optimized build path without question (don’t forget your bloodhound spell wand). However, either of the pats above are still strong builds.
Note 1 – Weapon Finesse will allow you to use your dexterity, instead of your strength, for your Dirty Trick maneuvers as long as you are using your unarmed strike to perform the dirty trick. In the case of this build, performing a dirty trick with an unarmed strike to make a person blind would include things like pulling a cloak over someone’s eyes, pocking a person in the eyes, rubbing mud over their eyes, knocking helm crooked, etc… The reason for this is because when you use a weapon to perform a dirty trick (unarmed strike in this case) you add the bonuses applied to the weapon and the feats (in this case weapon finesse & weapon focus) applied to the weapon. See this blog and this discussion for further clarification.
However, if you tried to make them blind by doing something that does not use your unarmed strike (say spit into their eyes), then you would not be able to apply your Dexterity to your dirty trick CMB. You would need the Agile Maneuvers feat. While you can definitely get by blinding foes without agile maneuvers, you might consider it if you want to use other tactics for blinding and/or tactics that don’t involve using your hands and feet for other dirty tricks. This build does not take Agile Maneuvers.
If you were going to select Agile Maneuvers, I would have it replace Shadow Clone NT. Instead take the Combat Training NT (Agile Maneuvers).
Skills: Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics, Escape Artist and Sense Motive would seem to be the most natural skill selections for this builds. Given that he will get 7 skill points each level, I would suggest maxing all of these skills and using the extra amongst useful secondary skills.
- If you are choosing to do the Optibuilds’ Skills PDF Part I Build, you should also maximize your Handle Animal Skill.
Items: +4 Belt of Dexterity (16K), +2 Amulet of Mighty Fist (16K), +1 AC Red Ioun Stone (Wayfinder +2 to CMB and CMD) (5.5K), +2 RoP (8K), Winged Boots (12K), +3 Mithril Chainshirt (10K), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9K), Scrolls (Various Types to suit different situations), Efficient Quiver, +2 Longbow Composite +0 (8K), Whatever Else
Natural Full Attacks: +17/+17/ (1d4 + arcane strike + sneak attack (6d6)) and +17 (1d4 + arcane strike + sneak attack (6d6)); get extra attack during full attack action if using his Ki ability for 4 attacks instead of three. The extra attack can be a bite or a claw.
Normal & Natural Full Attack: +16/+11 fists (1d6 + arcane strike + 6d6) & +15/+15 claws (1d4 + arcane strike + 6d6) & +15 bite (1d4 + arcane strike + 6d6); once again he can get an extra fist attack with Ki.
Bow: +16/+11 (1d8 + sneak + arcane strike)
CMB for Dirty Trick = +23 (assuming you are using unarmed strike to perform the combat) = +10 BAB for Manuevers + 7 Dex Mod +2 Imp DT + 2 Wayfinder +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
Adminstrator has combined what was once several comments by the poster to make question and answer concise for future readers of these comments. Poster wrote:
“Noticed a problem – Maneuver Master says that you use the Monk’s class level instead of your BAB for your extra attack. Doesn’t that make it virtually impossible to blind enemies past the early levels?…
From what I’m reading on the Maneuver Master page, your monk level *replaces* your BAB, not just for Monk levels, but completely replaces your BAB as far as the extra granted attack goes.
Relevant text:
‘The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers…’
Doesn’t say just the CMB granted by monk levels or that it stacks with other levels, but that it’s simply replaced, period.”
THERE IS NO PROBLEM
First, I have edited out some of the comments in our back and forth on this so as to get to the meat of the issue in one response, now that I finally understand what you are proposing.
In a vacuum, I guess someone could read Master Maneuver Monk (MMM) the way that you are reading it (i.e. Once you take 1 level of Master Maneuver you lose all BAB from other classes with regard to CMB). However, we are playing Pathfinder and your reading of Master Maneuver Monk (without regard to Pathfinder context), violates universal Pathfinder truths.
First Truth: BAB is always added from different classes. Interpreting MMM’s language to say simply that the MMM levels replace the BAB gained through monk levels is the correct way to interpret MMM because it does not break this universal truth.
Second Truth: BAB is never destroyed by leveling up. After all, what you are proposing is that a 19th level fighter who decides to take 1 level of MMM at 20th level would go from a +19 BAB for CMB instantly down to a +1 BAB for CMB. Paizo did not create a class that destroys BAB or CMB – nor would they ever. If you are interpreting any class ability in such a way that it destroys BAB, you should immediately look for a different interpretation.
Third Truth: Class abilities (unless otherwise stated) refer to levels gained in that class. For instance, barbarian rage reads, in part, as follows: “A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds.”
While rage does not say at each barbarian level after 1st you gain 2 additional rounds of rage, that is, nonetheless, what it means.
Similarly, when MMM speaks of replacing Monk levels for BAB, it is referring to replacing Monk levels for BAB (normally gained from monk levels).
Conclusion: Your interpretation is incorrect. It is not that I don’t understand what you are proposing (at least now I understand). It is just that, frankly, you could not be more wrong. And I don’t mean to sound mean. I just don’t want anyone else who comes to this site and who looks at this build to be unnecessarily confused. By the way, there have been threads on this issue posed on Paizo messageboard. All threads agree with my interpretation.
Once again, you can literally without context read MMM to do what you suggest, just as I could literally read barbarian1/fighter 19 to give me 40 rounds of rage. However, in context, the BAB from MMM stacks with the BAB from all other classes you have.
Ummm… not really to all CMB. JUST to the bonus maneuver you make when using Flurry of Maneuvers. That’s the only ability it affects, so that’s the only one that’s constrained by making the effective BAB bonus to CMB be equal to the monk’s level. Seriously, read it again. All your other attacks gain BAB to CMB as normal.
Now, let’s stop talking about “truths” and instead talk about hard facts that we can cite. For example, the fact that Pathfinder is a game made of exceptions. There are the base rules, and then class abilities, feats, and so on modify them. For example, Combat Reflexes creates an exception in the rule “you may only make a single attack of opportunity per round” and instead replaces it with a number of AoOs per round equal to your Dex mod.
Now let’s talk about the exceptions here. BAB is added from different classes in general. That’s a general rule, sure. But what you’re proposing would be true if the text said, “Your BAB from the Monk class is treated as your Monk level for the purpose of CMB when making martial maneuvers using Flurry of Maneuvers”. But that’s not what it says. It says that ONLY for Flurry of Maneuvers, your effective BAB is *replaced* by your Monk level. That’s the clincher.
Maneuver Master doesn’t break this. Flurry of Maneuvers, specifically, just creates a few exceptions–one, you can attack more often per turn. Two, your maneuvers (at first level) take a -2 penalty. Three, those extra attacks must be maneuvers. Four, and this is the important one, replace your effective BAB (all of it, it doesn’t say that it’s only your BAB from Monk) with your Monk level.
I think you’re saying that I think that it replaces your BAB completely. But that’s not the case. It’s *only* for maneuvers made with Flurry of Maneuvers. And that’s why your effective BAB in your build when using Dirty Trick with Flurry of Maneuvers is equal to one.
Indirect Official Answer: While Paizo FAQ has not addressed the issue of multiclass BAB stacking for MMM’s flurry of maneuvers, it has address it for the standard monk’s flurry of blows. Flurry of blows happens to have very similar language to flurry of maneuvers when it comes to BAB.
Flurry of Maneuvers reads, in part: “At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry…”
Flurry of Blows reads, in part: “When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus…”
The following question was asked to Paizo concerning Flurry of Blows: “The monk rules for flurry of blows state: “For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.” How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
The answer was as follows: “A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.”
A similar answer for MMM’s flurry of maneuvers should be assumed (at least in my opinion). Namely, BAB from MMM and other classes stack for all reasons including flurry of maneuvers.
Here is a link to Pathfinder SRD where the FAQ was discussed. Go here
I’ve thought of something similar, but the problem is that maneuver master doesn’t give you a free combat maneuver that you can then attack with. When you do a combat maneuver you can then do an additional free combat maneuver. You can’t do a free combat maneuver and then attack nor can you attack and then do a combat maneuver. You can only do maneuver. Even if this wasn’t true the extra maneuver is part of the flurry of blows (actually replaced by maneuver flurry) and you can’t do a flurry and then a set of natural attacks.
do you have a FAQ citation for this or are you just making stuff up.
Specifically regarding combining flurry and natural attacks.
Final sentence in the monk’s, Flurry of Blows (Ex): “A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.”
The feral combat training feat would take the edge off (although you have to take it twice: once for claws, once for beak), but it still knocks the wind out of it’s sails.
This build does not use flurry of blows. Accordingly, your comment as no relevance to this particular build.
This character is simply attacking with a flurry of manuevers and following up with natural attacks.
Sorry scratch that last sentence. You can receive the extra maneuver outside a flurry it’s just dependent on preforming a maneuver.
do you have a faq citation for this or are you just making stuff up
I am not really sure what you are (asking, stating, arguing), however, I will just explain how Flurry of Maneuvers works.
Flurry of Manuevers states, in part, “At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.”
So, first you must choose to do a full-attack action. Second, you can make one additional combat maneuver, “as a part of a full-attack action.”
So, if you make zero other combat maneuvers as a part of your full attack action you then get one extra for a total of one combat maneuver. 0+1 = 1. Similarly 1+1=2 and so forth.
The rest of the actions you take “as a part of” your full attack action can be attacks, if you want them to be. You could also make all of your actions during your full-attack action combat manuevers, if you want them to be.
Also, herolab is showing me 1d3 for the claws and bite. How did you up it to 1d4?
Thanks.
it may be 1d3, it is such a minute detail, I am not going to look it up.
I see a few problems with the feats as above how can you get improved dirty fighting without the int score? also the stats don’t all add up to 25 points (if playing that system) arcane strike you need to be a caster light step you need to be an elf, for starters. Unless there is rule bending involved it seems that this ones a bit broken? (i’m not a rules lawyer I just don’t understand xD)
The stat scores include the racial bonuses and they do add up correctly. Minor and Major Magic give him a caster level so arcane strike is okay. Finally, a maneuver master monk can select the improve version of any combat maneuver feat without having to meet the requirements.
Long story short, nothing is broken.
I think that only applies for bonus feats, not for actual feats taken, so you’d still need Combat Expertise for Greater Dirty Trick.
I am not sure that you are right about it only applying to bonus feats, but it is irrelevant because it was taken as a bonus feat.
I’m trying to do this but am confused on how you take the minor and major magic Rogue Talents since they both have Int prerequisites 10 or larger (and the 20 point build here has an Int of 8). I looked at the Ninja Trick that lets you take a Rogue Talent and it doesn’t let you ignore prerequisites as far as I can tell. How did you get to take them?
It appears that the stats will have to be slightly adjusted.
Ki Strike and Arcane Strike both require a swift action so would not be compatible, correct?
Short story, you are correct.
You can’t use both in the same round. Choosing one of the other is situational.
With that said, if you wished to replace Arcane Strike with something else, I have no problem with that.
I honestly don’t know that I would replace it with anything. The Ki pool is small enough to make Ki strikes not viable as your “every round” swift. I’ve been trying to to find a way to get reflexes and bodyguard in there with some Gloves of Arcane Strike. Burn up your AoO’s to give your allies +5 AC… not a bad deal.
Maybe I missed it, but whats the reason for the 14 wis?
The only thing i see monk needs it for is the AC bonus, which he lost when he wears the armor you suggest from the ninja light armor proficiency. Or did I miss something else entirely?
Thanks in advance. This build looks pretty fun.
This build is pretty fun! I noticed having the Wis at 14 is helpful at a low level rather than buying armor I just throw on a mage armor wand. AC20 at level2 being naked is pretty sweet. That and the perception bump is pretty decent.
I am a little confused by the multi-attack combat trick. After researching the natural attacks used in this build it appears they are all primary attacks and are not subject to the -5 normally assigned to secondary attacks.(unless I am missing something)